Curse

tweedledumb · Dec 16, 2006, 10:37 PM // 22:37

I'm new to monking, but not to GW. When I decided to make a monk I went to wiki and poked around on here to check out some builds, etc...

I'm running a Mo/Me with every last point in healing prayers and divine favor with the few left over points in inspiration.

Skills are as follows:

Word of Healing
Orison of Healing
Healing Breeze
Healing Seed
Heaven's Delight
Purge Conditions or Remove Hex (depending on area)
Ether Signet
Rebirth

My wife and I have heroed most of Nightfall, part of factions, and some of Prophecies. I use healing seed on our warriors before the fight, healing breeze on those suffering from degen (if I can't immediately remove it), and use heaven's delight only when disaster seems imminent (actually considering switching it out, haven't used it very often).

I have absolutely no problem keeping our heroes and ourselves up. Occassionaly heroes go down, but party wipes have been extremely rare. Everything seemed ok...

Except for the fact that I'm having a hard time keeping real people up. Is it the build? After having pugs yell noob over and over I'm starting to think that it just might be my monk...

Barrett · Dec 16, 2006, 11:47 PM // 23:47

seems like ok build to me rebirth may not be good idea heavens delight maybe removed
but most of time a monk cant be expected to keep everyone alive i mean if some1 get hit by lots at once u have only few seconds to heal them b4 they get hit again
most time its there builds that suck

Carth` · Dec 16, 2006, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Your build isn't the best I've seen but it should work. PUGs in general don't have much coordination and are a lot harder to keep alive than AI.

Real people wear far too many runes lowering their health to dangerous levels, and they do dangerous and unexpected things all the time, and most don't have a sense of self-preservation, thinking that the monk will keep them alive, and if you don't, it's your fault. A henchman will run away or kite if in trouble.

ss1986v2 · Dec 17, 2006, 01:53 AM // 01:53

as said before, not the best build ever, but definitely not the worst ever. i no longer run a pure healing build, but if i was going to use a spammable heal, id use dwayna's kiss over orison (greater potential heal). seed is nice, but id dump breeze (too easy to overheal, direct healing usually better then regen). never used heaven's delight, but if it works for you, go for it. i love word, but many have moved on to different elites over time. i dont like remove hex or purge on a primary monk, the recharge of purge is too long, and 2 second cast is too inviting for an interrupt with remove. also, i dont like ether sig over power drain or leach sig, but again whatever works for you.

one of my old healing builds:

heavy in divine and heal. some to inspiration. rest into prot.

healing seed
dwayna's kiss
word of healing
optional slot
holy veil/inspired hex
mend ailment/mend condition/dismiss condition (new skill, seems about equal to the others)
power drain/leach sig/ether sig
rez of choice

for the optional slot you could bring heaven's delight, sig of devo, heal other, healing touch, healing whisper, sig of rejuve, vig spirit, or whatever you want.

random.name · Dec 17, 2006, 06:19 AM // 06:19

The problem with Healing Breeze, is that it the heal is over time, and not immediate. Slapping HB on someone at 25% health will in no way help him. Instead use a skill like heal other that heals for a large amount, at the same amount of energy. HB CANNOT catch a spike.

Here is the two builds I mostly run for PUG's

Healer:
Healing Whisper
Orison of Healing
Jamei's Gaze
Signet of Rejuvination
Condition Removal
Hex Removal
Cap Sig
Rez

Protection:
Reversal of Fortune
ZB
SoA
PS
Aegis
Hex removal
Condition Removal
Rez

I also think part of the problem is the fact that you are used to monking for heroes/hench, and not human parties. Heros does not Leeroy. You will get better with time.

Burst Cancel · Dec 17, 2006, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Pure healing builds are less effective than hybrids. WoH, Seed, and Rebirth are the only skills on your bar that are worth playing. Breeze, Orison, Delight, etc. should never see play, even in PvE.

Try playing a Blight or ZB monk instead.

Effigy · Dec 17, 2006, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Light of Deliverance and Healer's Boon are good Healing elite if you're more comfortable staying in that line, although I'd still recommend taking at least a condition removal from the Prot line. Mend Condition or Dismiss Condition are the best options and are playable with only 4 Prot.

Kuja · Dec 17, 2006, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Breeze and Orison are meh in PvE...I ran a prot build all of nightfall PvE and it's really the way to go... Zealous benediction/aegis/g.o.l.e./RoF/dismiss/GoH were the key skills.

random.name · Dec 17, 2006, 08:15 PM // 20:15

I prefer orison to touch as a selfheal, because in a pinch orison can be used to heal slight pressure.

geekling · Dec 18, 2006, 01:17 PM // 13:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by tweedledumb

Except for the fact that I'm having a hard time keeping real people up. Is it the build? After having pugs yell noob over and over I'm starting to think that it just might be my monk...

It has been mentioned before, but it is worth repeating, monking with a party mostly made up of heroes is different from monking for a PUG.

Let me make an assumtions here; when you're playing with your wife. The two of you are in the same room and actually communicate occationally as you are playing.

You've just completed one fight, perhaps you missed a wandering mob that joined the fray, or one of your heroes managed to aggro a second or a third mob. You took on about the limit of what you can handle. While you pulled everyone out in one piece, your energy is completely depleted and half the party is still suffering from degenerative conditions.
You probably let your wife know this, if she is unaware of the status of the party and so on.
The two of you give it a moment before you continue, your heroes obligingly stays put waiting for you to have recovered your energy and everyone to be back at 100% health and condition free.

Everything is peachy keen. The two of you (and your heroes) move on and slowly work your way through the game, one mob at the time. Taking the scenic route stopping to admire the view and smell the flowers - so to speak.

Now with your PUG, the same situation. You've got half the team having turned their party window off (because it blocks their view and they don't feel they need it - if someone is low on health it's not like they can heal them, they're not monks,) so have no clue of the status of the rest of the team. Or don't care, that's the job of the monk.
So they charge on, directly into the next mob.
They overextend, run out of range for the monks to heal them.
They suddenly split up, one or two of them taking off in a different direction from the rest of the party.
Do all these misstakes that heroes don't do, since your heroes follow you and if you don't move, neither do they.

Things are not peachy keen and people die.

So what I'm saying is that part of it is, yes about your monk, more perhaps about you not having adjusted your monking style to cope with the unpredictability of PUGs.
Some enjoy monking for PUGs because the extra challenge, some can't stand having to monk for PUGs for the same reason.

Now there have been some discussion about your build, healing breeze isn't optimal etc. and so forth, it's allready been discussed.

But what I want to comment on this:

Quote:

healing breeze on those suffering from degen (if I can't immediately remove it)

To me, that reads as a clear indication that you are suffering from what I like to call itchy fingers as a monk. What this means is that you want to keep everyone at 100% health 100% of the time. This tends to lead to overhealing - basically wasting your energy and thus probably having problems of running out of energy if a fight drags out. Add that to the PUG situation where there is usually no time to rest and recoup that energy between fights - with some PUGs more or less the whole thing is one long dragged out fight.

I will admit at this point that I am a recovering itchy fingers monk myself. Not healing unless really needed can be one of the hardest lessons to learn when it comes to monking.

Conditions. Unless it is a melee type calling out that they are blind, a caster calling out dazed, or massive degen while they or someone else is taking other damage. - Leave them be, they are not a priority.
Hexes, there are only a few that really needs to be removed. Most are just a small inconveniece. Unless they are troublesome enough to be called, don't bother.
Still have over ~75% or so health? Not a priority - don't really need direct healing (a light of deliverance if there's more than one party member around 75% or so is very nice though and only 5e) unless they are currently taking damage, in which case skills from the protection prayers line can be more effective than just pure healing.
Getting down to about 50% health and taking damage - Yep! this is your priority case, this is when you want to still have your energy bar full and be able to counter the damage without getting drained of your energy reserve. Because you don't know if 2 seconds later it'll be someone else getting into hot water.

Conserve your energy for when it is needed is the whole thing here and where itchy fingers is a problem.

gobla · Dec 18, 2006, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

Pure healing builds are less effective than hybrids. WoH, Seed, and Rebirth are the only skills on your bar that are worth playing. Breeze, Orison, Delight, etc. should never see play, even in PvE.

Try playing a Blight or ZB monk instead.

What's so bad about orison?

I've got atleast reasonable experience with monking and I find it to be a great heal.

I usually set up my bar like this:

Big Heal - Moderate Heal - All-round heal ( orison ) - condition removal - hex removal - random enchant ( prot spirit, healing seed etc. )/party heal - energy management/healing boost ( ether sig, healer's boon etc. ) - rez

Now my big heal is WoH, infuse health or heal other , my moderate heal is a conditional one ( dwayna's kiss, healing whisper, ethereal light etc. ) and then my all-round heal always is orison for healing builds. I really can't see what could replace it. It's a cheap short cooldown heal that can be used on all targets.

What would you suggest to function as a replacement? With all big heals being other only, conditional heals being welll... conditional I need a solid low cooldown heal to heal myself and to use when my other heals are recharging.

LightningHell · Dec 18, 2006, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Oh, there's a lot that's wrong with Orison. Inefficiency, both in Energy and in time spent, for one.

I like:

Gift of Health
Reversal of Fortune
Enchantment (Prot Spirit, Spirit Bond, Shield of Absorption usually)
Condition Removal
Signet of Devotion
Monk Elite (BL more often than not)
GoLE
Heal Party/Aegis

I recommend going Protection and splashing into Healing. For one, Protection is a lot more energy efficient - 10% of 570~ health is 57~ damage, while a high-level mob will do 100+ damage more often than not. Reversal of Fortune is a lot more efficient than Orison, as well. Gift of Health, a very good heal, goes well with playing Protection.

Something like Reversal, Gift, a few enchants, and some emanagement if needed, is what I like seeing on a PuG monk.

Burst Cancel · Dec 18, 2006, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by gobla

What's so bad about orison?

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...9&postcount=18

olly123 · Dec 18, 2006, 05:24 PM // 17:24

i know this ant realy the right place to post it, but instead of making a new topic, what is GoLE?, this is the first psot ive seen it liek this. cant think of monk moves that fit in it, cheers.

to op yes i agree with the orsiron haters, and i think that a Zb, monk is the way to go, tho if ur goign healing i like kiss, and glimer in my build, and seed is also nice on the tank

pingu666 · Dec 18, 2006, 05:27 PM // 17:27

glyph of lesser energy

twicky_kid · Dec 18, 2006, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Yes you are doing something majorily wrong. You have no investment in prot.

Its easier to prevent the dmg than it is to heal through it. RoF alone is more affective than all the healing prayer skills.

olly123 · Dec 18, 2006, 10:17 PM // 22:17

ty for that, and i agree with twicky_kid on the ROF bit, but having too many protect imo is not as good as 1 heal and 1 protect

Effigy · Dec 19, 2006, 09:34 AM // 09:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by olly123

ty for that, and i agree with twicky_kid on the ROF bit, but having too many protect imo is not as good as 1 heal and 1 protect

That might be true when there's no communication between the monks. Of course, you don't want both of them casting Prot Spirit on the same player at the same time. However, two prot monks can work well as long as they don't step on each other's toes too much. Spam spells like RoF end fast enough that doubling up isn't going to be much of an issue. The important thing is to have both monks call when they cast SoA, PS, etc.

Carth` · Dec 19, 2006, 10:02 AM // 10:02

ZB is great when you are the only monk, but in PvE in 2 monk teams, so many times I use ZB on someone below 50% health, and the other monk already healed. This is from mainly playing with heroes/henchmen, I can't beat their reactions, so I basically never get the energy back from ZB unless the hench monk is out of energy.

It's essentially a Heal Other in the prot line if you play with Kihm, she always gets it first.

And even if you do get your heal in first, that means the other monk didn't.

Treading on the other monk's toes is a lose-lose situation.

I don't have this problem with playing in PUGs, because the other monk is always crap and does nothing.

Lord Oranos · Dec 19, 2006, 10:25 AM // 10:25

I like Orison, but only with Healer's Boon.